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Transcript of Dialogue Between Dr Garry Nolan, Jesse Michaels and Dr Hal Puthoff on Physiological Effects of UFOs on Humans and Analysis of UFO Debris 12 December, 2021

Below is a transcript I made of the linked podcast featuring Dr Garry Nolan who is researching recovered UFO materials and the brain effects and anomalies of people who have experienced close contact with UFOs..

The conversation is between Jesse Michaels of the American Alchemy podcast, Dr Nolan and at one point Dr Hal Puthoff.

Personally I have found that when important information like this is delivered orally it can be useful in research to have a detailed scripted account.

I hope you agree - because it took hours!


JM Dr Gary Nolan is a well-respected microbiologist and geneticist at Stanford. Along with his PhD students he spun up multiple companies that have sold for nine figures.


JM I'm here with my friend Dr Gary Nolan here at the Nolan Research Lab at Stanford. Very few people I think marry

traditional science and the study of anomalous kind of heterodox subjects like UFOs and aliens. Where did

your interest stem from?


GN Originally somewhere very early on I started reading science fiction


JM Do you have any favorite authors?


GN More recently Iain Banks and Arthur C Clarke obviously

amazing


JM And Arthur C Clarke wrote 2001

A Space Odyssey right?


GN Right


JM And I always found interesting you know sort of the monolith in 2001 Space Odyssey which is this sort of thing placed on Earth, that it inspires tech innovation. It's almost like John Mack would talk about - a lot of these alien sightings being slightly more advanced but barely comprehensible tech for the time almost inspiring tech

innovation.


GN I often think of it as laying breadcrumbs in a direction..


JM What are the areas of microbiology that you're currently most excited about?


GN So right now primarily I would say we're interested in cancer and understanding how cancer is put together


FILM CLIP This is a set of robots you

program each station...


GN Science in its essence and scientists are capitalists. Most of the biology scientists in the country have some relationship to studying cancer. Why? Because the NCI the National Cancer Institute is one of the biggest

institutes in the country for doling out money, so you follow the money and if there's no money for doing this research

and there's no positive feedback for it ,and if anything negative feedback, then the science doesn't advance


JM This is a crucial point. Despite the upper echelon of society actually being pretty interested in UFOs it suffers

from a severe lack of resources. Just look at the main UFO program over the last 15 years out of the Department of Defense, it's called AATIP or the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. AATIP has a $22 million

budget. Just compare that to fighter jet budgets which often exceed $100 billion. In other words discovering extraterrestrial life and even propulsion that could be stepwise better than what we currently

have gets less than one percent of the

current f-35 budget



GN From my point of view when I got involved, the CIA came to my office. I mean at first I thought it was a joke

I really did. I was looking across the way here at some of the other offices to see if there was a camera. And so they

said we asked around and everybody said that you've built the best tool called cyTOF. I was introduced to others who

were I think you people called them 'The Invisible College' - it was people like Jacques, people like Hal Puthoff, Eric Davis

and Robert Bigelow and Colm Kelleher.

And then they showed me MRIs of some of these people and most of those people had interactions with UFOs and these were Department of Defense and intelligence people, so supposedly and reasonably credible individuals. So in looking at the MRIs of some of these people we noticed an area of the brain that seemed to be disturbed let's say or different

in many of these individuals. So it's an area that I've talked about before between the head of the Caudate and the Putamen that had increased neural density and it was larger in all these individuals. And so you just ask the question, okay, what's unique about these individuals? Well they're all highly functioning and you have to make snap decisions.

And so what is that, that's intuition. One way to explain it would be intuition or just highly intelligent. And then

surprisingly when we looked in the family members we found that the family members had it, which was fascinating. So that means that structure had a genetic component, whatever it was.


JM here's a question: do you have a genetic and phenotypic predisposition to seeing the UFOs, or post contact do you now have a more neuronally dense caudate nucleus

and Putamen?


GN No I don't think it's changed. They're just able to as you say, see it - they're able to recognize it for what it

might be and not dismiss it.


JM Maybe it's allowing us to kind of widen the doors of our normal limited scope of

perception. You're seeing these UFOs that exist kind of interstitially in reality that other people just can't see...


GN Our senses are a filter to stop our brains from being overwhelmed with reality and so what we see is a limited

aspect of everything around us.


JM But that is a different model of reality than people currently have today but it's one

I'm sympathetic to, which is that the sensory organs are not necessarily productive they're reductive


GN Oh yeah absolutely- they're reductive yes yeah


JM On a default state of almost greater omniscience but an inability to make

sense of right things...


GN I just don't know whether or not it is an antenna or anything like that - it just allows us to interpret things

better, right? So for instance there's a form of Japanese chess which is a smaller number of pieces etc. So they took masters in this, they set up brainwave to figure out what area of the brain might be involved with intuitive moves

where you basically make the unexpected but brilliant correct move and at those moments the Caudate containment lit up


JM That's interesting


GN I find that fascinating and we're actually working on using both autism and schizophrenics because this area of the brain in both autism and schizophrenia, can be damaged. But if you think a little bit about it, you know schizophrenics hear things and see things that nobody else sees, so are they all crazy?


JM Well that goes into the transmission theory I think schizophrenics, just, it's like a transmitter being yeah

broken or oscillating between different...they can't turn it off


GN They can't turn it off.


JM So we went deep on brain structures - the other component of this is materials..

I think a lot of people will be incredibly excited that there are even UFO materials that have been possibly left behind..


GN So Jacques Vallee has collected these kinds of materials from all over the world.


JM FILMED COMMENTARY - Jacques Vallee is pretty impressive in his own right. He helped develop a computerized map of Mars while at NASA and he developed one of the early versions of the internet called arpanet with Doug Engelbart. He's also the inspiration for the French scientist played by Francois Truffaut in Steven Spielberg's Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Jacques was the original person who put forth the multi-dimensional hypothesis, the idea that aliens could co-exist alongside us but remain unseen. For this he received a lot of backlash from other ufologists. In short he was too weird even for the weirdest. Jacques Vallee publishes his address online so people who witness UFO crashes across the country can send him the parts. But he has no real way of doing analysis on the parts without sending them to Doctor Gary Nolan who can do spectroscopy and real material analysis on them.


GN The first question is, what was unique about many of these samples that were ejected from these objects?


JM One of the most interesting samples Nolan mentions is from Ubatuba, Brazil where a fisherman

witnessed an exploding orb off the coast and collected some of the parts.


GN It turned out it was magnesium at an extremely high level of purity but that's strange because magnesium burns

like hell so obviously it had something else in it. So we did we did a mass spectrometry analysis of some of those

pieces with a highly sensitive instrument, it's over in the engineering department, called a nanosims. It's a secondary

ion mass spec as it's called and basically what it lets you do, is determine not just the elements by their mass, but also the isotopes by their mass and one of them was anomalous. The magnesium ratios were way off, I mean not even close to being natural. It's interesting.


JM So you would never find this you would never find it in nature?


GN You'd never find in nature


JM And you'd need some sort of centrifuge or something to create that isotope ratio - would that be possible?


GN Oh it's possible but it's just expensive beyond you know...

Most people don't have access to that especially when these things were found and the question is why would you do it, how would you do it, what's the motivation for it, is it something that they're using and they need that ratio to accomplish something? Or is it a byproduct of an effect that where they take the natural things and then they're doing something and this ends up being the outcome and then when they're done with it they throw it out...whether or not these objects are trying to show us something or they don't care.. we see this happening and that maybe tells you something. You know you can sort of reverse engineer from first principles maybe what that is. Nobody that I know has figured it out.


JM When you look at the five observables of the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena task force, things like

trans-medium travel, the ability to sort of break conservation of momentum and stop on a dime

are these possibly isotope ratios that unlock these features?


GN Yes, that's what you have to come to a conclusion on, it's used in something.

Maybe some of these things that we see are not even technological, maybe they are some kind of living thing.


JM Well some of the.... I remember Commander David Fravor, the Nimitz sighting 2004. himself looking at the

UFO and it's almost as if the thing sees that he's looking at it and it's conscious and almost breathing...

Why isn't the government immediately funding this research, I mean it feels insane?


GN You tell me and maybe they have done it. Maybe the stuff that we have...somebody is sitting around saying

laughably, 'they're wasting their time on exhaust - we have the engine!'

If something came from you know the Andromeda galaxy and it's it's a million years ahead of us it lands on Earth, it has technologies that we don't understand.


JM Some people think that aliens might be us from the future and if you think about the way we're evolving it's probably smaller bodies bigger heads you know sort of what what you would see a grey alien looking like.



GN I've always been interested in the five percent I don't know. I'll publish the 95 I do know yeah but I'm always interested in the stuff that I can't explain because almost every major discovery has been somebody looking at anomalous data and then constructing a new theory of reality yes right and that's Thomas Kuhn, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, the notion that almost every scientific revolution was fought tooth and nail by the more conservative skeptics saying 'you can't possibly be right'


JM And Thomas Kuhn was friends with John Mack who was the head of the Harvard psychiatry department who spent

the latter part of his career studying alien abductions which....


GN I didn't know that


JM Yeah and he encouraged him to do the study.


GN Cool! Yeah that's interesting I'm going to use that in my talks

That's I think where we're at right now, the preponderance of evidence now and the Department of Defense admitting

that these things are real, no conclusions (but) the data is real.


JM The theory maybe I like best is the Jacques Vallee/Diana Pasulka theory that 1947 Roswell crash represented this dividing line and before that people were seeing angels, demons, leprechauns, fairies, whatever this sort of local contemporary lore of where the sighting took place was, and then after aliens became something in the zeitgeist,

that's what people started to see but you're seeing some sort of kind of proto-architecture of a thing that involves

beings and crafts and then you're recollecting it in this way that is comprehendable, given kind of like the noble myth or the myth of the time.


GN I use the example of, let's say that there's a race of intelligent ants out in your garden they don't have a clue what's going on up in the kitchen, they couldn't understand it if they wanted to and neither could you understand what their communications are. How do you talk to them? Well the first thing you would probably do is make a little thing that looks like an ant and put it there and have it do something. And so maybe that's what it is, maybe alien means alien. I mean it's so far different from us that it's doing its best to talk to us in ways that it can do. They're either from another planet in this galaxy or elsewhere underground or nearby or whatever and they just show up to look at us and

because they're basically maybe looking at their past or they're interdimensional or they're from another level of reality

that we don't understand - all speculation but fun. You can run your mind down those possibilities and realize how much bigger a universe you live in than what you're dealing with day to day.

To have a group of scientists who are supposed to be leading thinkers, debase people who are interested in thinking

about new ideas, to me that's heretical.


JM And it feels like it's gotten worse in terms of established scientists like we talk about like the Fermi Paradox which is like the sort of mental model or like question of like, why don't we see aliens? That's Enrico Fermi, that guy created the theoretical underpinnings for splitting the atom - he was in the Manhattan Project, as conventionally well-regarded as it gets and he was thinking about aliens in his off time at Los Alamos so it's like

why can't we do that?


GN When your mind expands to a certain point in terms of what you might consider reality to be, other entities live

there.


JM So this should be a rallying cry to anybody watching on the financing front, is there any way we can see the

materials?


GN I have some in a locked bank account. I don't have

it hanging around here.....


ONE WEEK LATER


JM Professor Garry Nolan, thanks for having us back. We're here a week later very excitingly, we have parts of

possible UFO crashes, so what's the background on what we're looking at now?

Okay the parts were a little anticlimactic and small but he claims to have much bigger parts that we can't see due to national security sensitivities.

But let's just take these three facts combined about the parts that are on the table, Number one -observers with no real monetary incentive to lie claimed to see a vehicle that broke the bounds of our current understanding of aerospace

limitations,

Two the materials contain isotope ratios that do not exist naturally on earth

And Number Three a top Stanford microbiologist isn't ruling out the fact that these parts could be of extraterrestrial origin.

Given all, that even though these pieces are small, I think they should get you pretty excited

And we now know that isotope ratios might have more to do with the properties of the material themselves and the features and what the material can actually do in the physical world than we had previously thought right?


GN Correct - the odd thing was that the other piece which supposedly came from the same event had exactly the correct isotope ratios as to what you would find on earth. The material up front was what we would say is homogeneous or partially mixed, it's kind of like if you were to take chocolate ice cream and vanilla ice cream and then just do a little bit of a swirl you would see a mixture and we would call that inhomogeneous. Why would you mix some of these elements?

There's actually again no good reason - there's no metal that people normally make that have some of the mixtures that

we've seen. That's interesting.


JM That's worthy of investigation


So that covers all of the anomalies about the pieces of magnesium coming from Ubatuba. But what about the other

sample on the table, those are pieces of bismuth. Nolan actually couldn't recall how it was procured so we had to call

Hal Puthoff to get the full scoop how...


Dr Hal Puthoff has one of the most interesting careers of all time. He was first a laser physicist and then out of

Stanford Research Institute he started the government's psychic spy program. Since then he's been doing frontier tech

research and has briefed multiple Presidents on UFOs.


JM IN CALL TO HAL PUTHOFF

So do you know the original story of how it was kind of procured?


HP Initially the story was that it was sent anonymously by someone claiming to be an army officer.


JM Long story short this army officer was going through his grandfather's archives when he found this rare sample.


HP Then written in the diary was, that it was a piece from Roswell.


JM True or not, these thin layers of bismuth magnesium are very hard to reproduce. Hal claims that they even have the properties to micro size wave guides for terahertz frequencies.


HP It turns out that it reduces the size of the required microwavable guide for terahertz frequencies down to about1/30th of the wavelength which is amazing, so it means you can basically put 30 waveguides in the volume of a single waveguide at terahertz frequencies.


JM Got it, thanks a lot I really appreciate it


JM What can you do with terahertz that we can't with current?


GN Well it's just more packing, more information, faster, farther, yeah terahertz is the next thing for communication that if we can get terahertz waves working efficiently, there's a whole slew of other electronic and radio communication

things that can be done that can't be done now


JM Shouldn't there be things that we're doing with these materials that show what environments they can sort of

withstand or what possible properties they have as well, so like super high velocity literally like slingshotting them

as fast as you can or like putting them in super cold environments or super hot, the trans medium thing, making sure they don't rust underwater because a lot of the UAPs seem to submerge underwater and then come out of

the water, basic things like that based on the observables?


GN You could run electricity across them see if anything's different, are they conductors, are they insulators? Again

this is why I think it's important to get this kind of information out so that even a skeptic could suggest what should be done.

There's a number of people who who have them. I get emails occasionally from people actually. There's one that I just got in the last few weeks, an email from somebody who - it's a glowing object that drops molten metal. I haven't seen it yet I've just seen pictures of it. But it's interesting enough that I'm actually going to follow through on that one

JM We should have some sort of standardized process.


GN Exactly - there's like a flow chart that you could put together of what should be done and once you've got that

process, things just go in one end and come out the other. And then you give it to the true believers and to the

skeptics and let them fight with data rather than hearsay


JM Do you think if they're hyper-intelligent aliens they're aware that you're looking into that?


GN Presumably - or they don't care or they say there's nothing you're going to be able to figure out about this,

so we don't care or it's left behind almost as a 'you figure it out and you can have it' - you know the breadcrumb trail.


JM That's what it feels like.

Last question for you, Roswell 1947. Trinity that crash was 1945 where the sort of larger piece came from,

do you think that aliens are possibly interested in us splitting the atom, so do you think they're interested in not only nuclear power in our own possibly destruction of ourselves but figuring out the building blocks of base layer reality and so when we split the atom they become more interested and then maybe they're interested in the fact that we're figuring out our own genetic building blocks as well?


GN I mean from their perspective let's say a million years ahead - they know that we are maybe a few hundred years

from you know spreading in our local galactic arm even if only by conventional craft. Do they want a bunch of angry monkeys running around with bombs? They probably want to keep tabs on us, I would. I mean if I've got a neighbor who is bristling with armaments and always cursing and throwing stuff around, I might want to keep tabs on them -

and we're a bunch of angry monkeys right

now.


JM Dr Nolan appreciate it - this is awesome and i hope we make real progress, i hope we go through

the step sequence of science that it takes to figure out what the hell these things are and what they do


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