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Part Transcript of Peter Levender Interview with Engaging the Phenomenon's James Iandoli

How Tom DeLonge persuaded ten "advisors" to spill the UFO secrets, was revealed in this James Iandoli interview with Peter Levenda - co author of Tom's Sekret Machines, Gods, Man and War book trilogy.

Tom took the non-confrontational approach - the opposite of the UFO community who blame the US Government for cover ups.

Among the many topics covered is the religious opposition to the UFO subject particularly in the Air Force where many personnel consider it demonic.

And Peter tells the story of his encounter with Men in Black and their scheme to prevent him from following their black Cadillac.

I am posting here a heavily truncated and abbreviated transcript of this interview. Here is a link to the podcast


Peter Levenda has written a series of books, Unholy Alliances, the Nazi and the Occult, Sinister Forces but also people are going to be very familiar in the UFO scene with Sekret Machines. Peter but I think it is important when introducing you that you give a short outline of Sekret

Machines, Gods, Man and War


Yeah it's a trilogy as the name implies. So Volume one is Gods, volume two is Man and the third volume which is coming out

eventually is called War. So what we're doing is number one, we are based on the assumption that the phenomenon is real. We're not out to prove to anybody that there have been UFO sightings or there have been you know Close Encounters or that stuff, we start from that basic point, yes it's happened, it exists, it's real, now what?

So in Gods what we do is we approach it from the earliest recorded instances of sightings, the phenomenon seems to be recorded within the context of religion so we in Gods go through all sorts of permutations, we look at different kinds of religions and what they said about beings from the sky or lights in the sky or travel to the stars and travel back and forth. So we look at it from that point of view and we're saying okay what does all this mean,

what could it tell us, these ancient texts about what we're all experiencing today, what we're writing about today, what government is looking at today that was kind of in general what Gods was about and it was laying the groundwork for volume two which is Man. And Man is about dissecting our understanding of science, science as you know, biology, genetics, consciousness, all different permutations of all that. What does all of that mean and how does that relate to the phenomenon, what can the phenomenon tell us about that why is the phenomenon a challenge or even a critique of what we think about. When we think about science just as when we think about religion in book one, we're not thinking about science in

book two are they that different, is the phenomenon only science or is it only religion or is there some third concept that's above and beyond both science and religion so we have the point of view and it's one that got us a lot of doors opened in the beginning with the To the Stars project was that both religion and science.

Human Society in general is a cargo cult and that's based upon this religion that started in the last century in the South Pacific with basically Stone Age tribes seeing for the first time airplanes landing and disgorging products, goods could be medicine, it could be weapons it could be armored vehicles it was during wartime and these these people see this for the first time, they haven't even seen they haven't no knowledge of electricity of communications. Digital Communications didn't exist but no telephones no televisions no radios nothing, and suddenly they're looking at an airplane there's no context for that experience and so what they did is. they started to build their own landing strips and they started to duplicate what they saw of these planes landing in the hopes that one of these planes would land on their landing strip and give them all kinds of stuff.

Our our point of view in the Sekret Machines project for the non-fiction books was, we are still part of that cargo cult, we are all a cargo cult. Our

science is dedicated towards traveling to the stars and immortality. These are the ancient religious concepts as well as the scientific ones. The ancient peoples wanted to travel to the stars and live forever. So in a religious context, in a scientific context it's the same thing.

We're a cargo cult we're still a cargo cult and that kind of colors everything that we do whereas science and religion is concerned and that leads us inexorably to volume three which is War and war is conflict. So now we have this religious understanding, a scientific understanding and with human beings that's going to lead inevitably to conflict. Somebody has more weapons, somebody has more knowledge, somebody has a different religion.

What does the conflict between people, especially in the last hundred years, what does that tell us about the phenomenon? How did different governments approach the phenomenon, was it a secret weapons platform, was it an intelligence operation by an unfriendly government and so on and so forth and we go deep into this.

We go into the Russian stories of ufology we go into the Chinese stories, we go around the world and we start unwrapping all of this and looking at how our government in the United States reacted in the 1950s to that Infamous UFO overflight over Washington DC in 1952 and their reaction to it, their official reaction in their press conference in July of 52 in which they tried to frame the UFO phenomenon in weird Biblical religious terms It's the

funniest freaking thing and if you go and you download that or you'll find it in the book as well and you read what they said and how they said it and who is attending that conference. The whole future history of ufology is in that one meeting in 1952 it's all there Hynek was there the guy from Roswell was there, the intelligence guy everybody was there in that room discussing the overflight in Washington DC and trying to frame it in paranormal terms, it's incredible so in Gods, Man and War war we're trying to get a handle on the UFO phenomena all the different perspectives and the goal is to tell people we need everybody's input on this. It can no longer just be a bunch of scientists somewhere or the military or the intelligence community we need the artists involved we need the writers, we need the creators, we need people from different countries, different ethnic backgrounds different races, different religions, everybody's got a piece of the puzzle. And the whole point of this Trilogy is to expose that to say everybody has a contribution to make and they still have a contribution and we're never going to find out what this really is if we just depend upon the government to tell us


I do have a few questions about War but I also would like to ask you about the advisors and was there was there any specific or you know general inputs that the advisors had regarding the Sekret Machines project


Well we started with the advisors so when Tom contacted me first it was the very end I think of the year 2014 November I think and that's when he was gung-ho to do all of this and we got together and started talking about you know all the possibilities. He had already been in contact with the number of the people that we eventually started to call the advisors which there were about ten in total

And initially the approach was very different from the UFO community. The UFO Community has an adversarial approach to the military and to the

government and I understand that. I grew up the same way, I'm a child of the 60s - like everybody else in that room at the time so the idea was you know

government is withholding things, they're lying to you, they know more than they are saying all of these things and my

and Tom's approach, and I was 100 per cent on board with it, was that if we keep taking this adversarial approach, it's not going to get us anywhere. They're not going to suddenly say 'oh yes you're right, how sorry we are. Here's the crown jewels' It's not just not going to work that way. What you have to do is approach this problem differently. We have to say, we know there was a cold war, the Soviet Union was a major threat, eventually China became a threat as well. So you know I grew up in the 1950s you know the air raid siren drills and hiding under the desk with your hands over your neck and everything you know kissing your ass goodbye. What we grew up doing I mean every Friday there were Airway drills and we went through this in our classrooms because the Russians at any moment were going to bomb us. So when you're growing up in that environment, did you really think the military was going to say 'oh by the way, you don't have to worry just about the Russians the Chinese Communists, J Edgar Hoover, the Mafia and everything else, guess what? We got aliens you know we got this too you know and let's worry about that as well. That was not going to happen - number one. Number two, the military didn't know what to make I think, of what was going on with the phenomenon and in the third way we didn't want the other countries to know we were having this issue. We didn't want the Soviets to know we were having a UFO issue or that there might have been a crash at Roswell or somewhere else in the United States or all of these things could not be revealed to our enemies who really wanted us dead who had

submarines off our coastline, who had put missiles in Cuba. You know we're not going to go and tell the Soviets these issues, we're not going to publicize it in our country and have the Russians either make fun of it which they did eventually or accuse us of using the UFO phenomenon as a kind of psychological warfare against the Soviet Union. I mean all of this stuff came out we talk about it in the third volume in War.... because it's important the way governments handled it. So we approached the advisors from that point of view, we know the problem we know you couldn't come out and tell us but what can you tell us, now Soviet Union is history, Russia is still there, there's still kind of a threat but it's not like it used to be, we're not fighting world communism and all this other stuff anymore. Things have changed militarily, things have changed from from a geopolitical standpoint. We have different problems now, has that attitude changed when it comes to the phenomenon? What can you tell us about it? And in some cases people talk to us kind of openly. When I say us, I mean in general they talk to Tom mostly. They will talk to Tom about you know, well there was this there, that we can't talk about it but you can look here, you can look there.

In one particular case we had one advisor who was giving us these they were... he was very unresponsive to a lot of the questions Tom would ask but he would answer almost socratically. He would answer with another question or he would answer with, ' did you think about this or why don't you look over here? without violating any secrecy or NDAs or you know clearance problems, he would just say something totally off the wall. So he would tell Tom for instance have you thought about Greek mythology? Tom would call me on the phone and say 'what the xxxx is this guy talking about? Greek mythology? I'm asking about UFOs he's given me you know Greek, he's talking about Prometheus you know, what am I supposed to do with that?' And I will say to him I will look over this and think you know, I think he's trying to tell you something if you look a little deeper at the story of Prometheus it's really very interesting because Prometheus was there at the beginning of the human race and Prometheus felt sorry for human beings that was going to give them the the mystery of fire right for which the gods would punish him. I mean I said there's a there's a lot to unpack in the Prometheus story he's trying to tell you something let's look at this a bit more deeply.

Or we would ask something else and the the advisors would come back and and give another question, a non-answer or a non-confirmation confirmation or would say something that would seem so strange that I would ask Tom: 'Tom did you see the movie All the President's Men, do you remember when Deep Throat was saying stuff and everybody else had to figure out what was going on? I said that's happening you know, it's happening now and the problem is it's very obscure and the subject matter is so obscure. And it resists an easy explanation. I said we have to communicate to our people to our readers and the people who are following you that there is no easy explanation to this. There is no one-size-fits all when it comes to the phenomenon. We can't just come out and say yes they're aliens from Arcturus or you know some or Sirius or star system or something. There's not going to be an easy answer to this They're here, we know they're here, we know they've been here for thousands of years, so we have to find some way to accommodate this information into our worldview because until now we've been excluding that part of the equation. We think it's just us and we think everything we've done is just us and for the most part that is pretty much it. But we've been sharing this space whether it's the Earth as a planet or whether it's this dimension or whatever it is, we're sharing it with something else that we cannot describe because we don't have the words for it, we don't have the vocabulary, we quite frankly don't have the science because when we see these things and when they're flying outside of our our destroyers and our battleships and our fighter jets and our Hornets and all the rest of it, they are exhibiting a science that we don't have, they're demonstrating to us that our science cannot understand their science and until until we can understand their science we can't understand them. We can have we have no context for understanding what they are. It's really, really difficult and tricky and if we try to give a simple answer to the people who read Sekret Machines and say that 'we have solved the problem, this is it', it's going to be wrong, it's going to be misleading, it's going to be unethical. We're going to have to show them how difficult this really is, we're going to have to say, 'listen take a breath it's not what you think it is it's a lot more tricky, a lot more difficult


Another question about the advisors, was there ever any indication from them that they felt that the public the people should

should know about the phenomenon or that this needs to come out in any way and was there maybe even an urgency behind that or what was the kind of perspective on that?


I don't think they would have thought of it and in those terms that there was an urgency behind it. I think that a lot of the advisors, I can't speak for all of them I can only speak for what came down through me through Tom for the most part, is that they do know more obviously than we know in terms of sheer amount of data in terms of what they have on radar traces and all the rest of it. There's a lot more information that we don't have but that doesn't mean that they know what it is. They just have a lot more data and understanding - the data is the critical part and I think they realize that they need help to understand this data and they've been shoehorning people in here and there I think to help with certain specific aspects of it but it's like the Blind Men and the Elephant, that story that I love to tell because it's so demonstrates this problem that we have, we have a lotof people who are blind who are trying to figure out what an elephant is by touching different parts of the elephant and they don't have, nobody has, the whole picture. You know, one blind guy touches the tail and thinks an elephant is like a rope, another person touches the ear and thinks it's like a palm tree on and on and on, so they have their own perspectives on what the phenomenon is but it's isolated you need a complete context a complete picture which incorporates not only the science and the technology but the consciousness aspect of it as well. Because that's the major aspect of the phenomenon as it affects us is the consciousness aspect, people seeing these things and being forever changed by it, people having the close encounters or people just seeing it in the air and it changes their their way of looking at the world forever because they don't have a place to put this in. If you're flying a fighter jet and you see a swarm of these Tic Tacs hovering around you doing weird stuff and then disappearing. Okay what do you do with that where do you put it, you're basically a scientist if you're piloting a Hornet and you know you have all this equipment and the data and all the technology you have heads-up displays, you've got missiles you've got it all and you can't handle what this is, you can't handle the thing that you're seeingso there's no context.

So I think with the the military, the intelligence community and to a certain extent as well, the private Industry aspect of all of this, all these people together are trying to figure out what this is. I don't know if they feel a sense of urgency. I think that if they felt a sense of urgency I personally would be terrified because if they feel a sense of urgency it means they know something's up they know we're at a at a tipping point somehow. I'd rather not think that, I'd rather think they're all taking their time because they know they got it under control but you know and I know, they don't have it under control They may think they have it under control, that's fine but there's going to be aspects of this that they can't understand there's got to be or else they would have come out with it and said okay this is it, this is the story nobody panic we got this under control, it's like this this and this. They haven't done that but they're starting to. They're starting to open up, they're starting to reveal it. They're starting to do this and it's not because they want to, it's because the technology that we have now has so far outstripped what there was back in the 1940s in the 1950s that at any moment somebody somewhere on the planet is going to figure this out on their own they're going to see something they're going to record something with a cell phone or somehow or they're going to use AI to figure this out. They're going to use some other some other systems operation to figure this out and they're going to come up with an answer. And that can happen at any moment and I think that, more than anything else is making people who do know what this is, very nervous that they're good, they they have to get out ahead of this thing because if they don't, somebody else will and it's going to be somebody like you or me or anybody else on the planet. It could be someone in a small village in Indonesia that says something and just happens to be in the right place at the right time with the right technology and bingo you know we've got paid dirt here - we've got something that we can show the world and everyone's going to scramble on trying to to either explain it or poo poo it or hide it or deep six it or whatever. But the cat will be out of the bag - you just can't fool the rest of us as much as you used to be able to.


People might say To the Stars is trying to say all these non-human intelligence are negative they're manipulating us and they're trying to you know paint that picture so from your perspective or To the Stars, what are some ideas that address you know possibly positive and or negative influences on on our civilization from non-human intelligence?


We do have an issue with all of that obviously we we do worry about it. We write about it in secret machines I'm pretty sure it'll be covered in War

if we haven't done it already in Man. The problem is we're going back to the earlier point, we are projecting human values onto the phenomenon so we ask ourselves are they good or bad. Irrelevant. That ethical situation doesn't exist. Right at this point we are not talking about people like us. If we were talking about people like us who shared a common ancestry on this planet, had a shared history in some other country, then maybe we could get there. But now we're talking about something we don't we have no freaking clue (as to) the origin of the phenomenon. Therefore for us to talk about good and evil, all we can do is say, is it going to be beneficial towards us or or is it going to be negative. Is this a liability or an asset. Being this close in proximity to the phenomenon we might be able to look at it this way, does it impact our survival as a race? And I think that's what the military is concerned about not good and evil, not if they're left or right, democrat or republican. What they're worried about is, can they kill us and if they can kill us are they going to? And that's all it comes down to from the military perspective. They think in those terms now - that's why we need to get more people than just the military on this. We need to get people who specialize in consciousness who can think outside the box and who can give us some scenarios to work with, can say that maybe, well if they didn't come up on our planet, they came up in a different planet with the different ecosystem. What would that be?

like how would we even communicate how would they even be able to communicate to us that they are hostile or friendly

How would that even be possible in a language that we would both understand? So this is like thrown up in the air. We have no idea where to start with this thing. We can kind of look at contactee experiences and start taking them seriously. That's a very dangerous area. There's a lot of softness in that it's not a hard science - it's really soft and kind of mushy.

But there are themes that seem to be consistant throughout and whether it's one contactee influencing the other contactee or whether it's actually direct experience of the phenomenon that's causing these reactions, that's what we have to learn. We have to figure that out and then we have to try to understand the emotional response that our people, and by our people I mean human beings in general, have where the phenomenon is concerned when they actually make contact, either with the machine or something that looks like a machine or with a being of some kind. What's the the initial contact? What happens, do you change, does your psyche change, do you have a different viewpoint on the world? What happens and we try to figure out that way based on those effects - what the phenomenon can do or might do to us. Based on that the problem is, it's very thorny and it's a lot deeper than just that. But it's a start and as we, as I said I think it's in Wa,r it might be in Man but I think it's in War but there was a point I was making in one aspect in

one of the volumes about colonization. We know what it is to colonize other countries, the British know that really well, we know that to a lesser extent

probably not as well as the British, but other countries have done that, they've gone to foreign countries and colonized them, we know from the perspective of the colonizer. We kind of have a lot of literature on that. We went to this country we took over their country we took over the raw

materials, we took over their people their governments everything else. We also need to know the experience now - it's more important than ever of those who were colonized. How did they survive, what did they think when this foreign army or these foreign people showed up with their foreign languages and foreign customs etc? What was their reaction, how did they handle it, how what did they experience, do they have written records of what happened

and so on and so forth, we need to know from both sides of that conflict what goes on because we've ignored the colonized for a long time. We invade a country and we bomb it and then we leave. We have to know how they handled it.

What we need is a more Global approach to this. We need to know because we may be in the position one day of having the entire planet being colonized

Maybe it's already been colonized we just don't even know. So we need to kind of know what our options are, how to deal with it, how to react towards it. So when you're asking about the evil, are they good are they demons or angels ,that gets us back to a little cabal within government and within the

Pentagon and within private Industry where there is this idea that you don't even talk about the phenomenon, you don't look at it, you don't describe it, you don't analyze it, you don't record it, because you're dealing with things you're not supposed to know and these are evil spirits. They're something that God doesn't want you to know and as one famous engineer once shouted 'you're not supposed to know this until you're dead' that famous quotation So there is a group of people who do resist us understanding more about the phenomenon because they've totally framed it in a religious context. And this is not just me coming up with another (story?), just our advisors telling us this. This has been covered in the news, that's been covered in news reports in

the open source. There are people within government and congressmen, people at the Pentagon as well military people, who think that this is something evil, something dangerous, it's Satanic I think it was Saint Paul who warned us about evil coming from the principalities above or something, so we have this idea that we are in danger from these things and the best thing to do is to pray to keep yourself going to church on Sunday and protect yourself because otherwise these things will come and screw with you. So it's not just a bunch of hard-nosed pragmatic scientists trying to solve this problem they are butting heads against a lot of people who have power who have contacts, who have charge of money in some cases saying no we're not going to explore this, we are not going to study this, it's something from the Devil, it's something Satanic and we have to avoid it. And that just makes things even more complicated for any of us that are trying to figure out what to do with this material

The Air Force Academy has very strange ideas about their their role where religion is concerned. People are forced to go to church from what I understand They have some very strange ideas about other religions other than Christianity and let's face it, it was the Air Force that gave us some of the worst misinformation campaigns targeting the UFO Community Richard Doty I'm thinking of and the Paul Benowitz situation. I mean it was the Air Force Academy right, they seem to think it's ok to use their intelligence capacity against American citizens and this is like what you know and it's a religious background as well. This is the Air Force: you're in charge of multi-million dollar aircraft and you're talking to me about the devils and angels and all the rest of it, it's a scary situation. So you know I I kind of have my radar up where it comes to to the Air Force because there's something really weird going on there.

But it's not just the Air Force obviously, it's everywhere and there's this idea especially now there's this sort of backlash of evangelical thinking on

these things where they're lumping a lot of the technology that we're seeing and the phenomenon itself, they're lumping it in with you know double worshiping and Satanism and everything but I don't personally see the connection.

But there is something that has always bothered me about the famous Tic Tac incidents and and all of that and I've mentioned this before it is something that stays with me and it's the the freakiest thing about this that nobody seems to focus on is that when the the pilots were chasing the Tic Tacs their commanders on the ship were telling them, okay don't follow them now, meet up at your cap it's like a an access

point in sky in space the coordinates are three-dimensional. Meet us, meet up there and the thing is nobody knows what that point is, the computer generates that onboard ship. So the computer on this ship sends a message to the computer on the plane, says go to these coordinates.

And as they're preparing to go to those coordinates, the ship radios them and says 'guess what, those things you were chasing, they're waiting for you at that access point'

How the hell did that happen? Okay that's a consciousness trick - that's not technology. The computer itself didn't know the points, it was generated by the computer to meet in a specific location that's part of our security apparatus, that's how we keep things secret from the enemy and yet the Tic Tac whatever the heck the Tic Tac was, knew to meet the aircraft, they were waiting for it there. How did it know? So this thing has always been bothering

me because there doesn't seem to be a rational explanation for it according to our technology. We then have to make the leap into that murky field of consciousness to describe what's going on to try to get a handle on it. And once you're in consciousness you're in that space where you've got angels and demons and gods and fairies and elves and Harry Potter. Everybody's in that side that's right so everybody's in there, they're all jostling for their position there. Every religion in the world has a piece of that consciousness space. So what position does the Tic Tac hold in that space? So you can have Pentagon people saying well they're not Christians you know, but then if they're not Christian then blow them out of the sky. So we're in that brutality, this is the

thing I'm afraid of right. So this is where we're at - so yeah it's scary. It's standing in our way. We can't figure these things out unless all these other people get out of the way so we can take a cold hard pragmatic look at it. But even as I say that, I realize there's so much of this that's consciousness based

Jacques Vallee talks about you know control mechanism that the whole UFO experience is like a control mechanism that it's a game that somebody's playing on us. John Keel kind of said the same thing so if that's true then the science following the science may lead us down the wrong path maybe we've got to stop for a second and look someplace else


I want to make a small distinction and maybe this is a flawed interpretation on my behalf but Vallee almost seems to have a thing where it's the control system is kind of guiding our evolution but Keel's perspective is more like it's just a trickster, it's tricking us leading us down the wrong road where as Vallee seems to think it's more of a controlled evolution and again that could just be my interpretation. I know Vallee does not like when people quote him because yes I'm just not on that level


But look look at it this way though - they could both be right ... for some reason I flashed on the Tarot deck, you have the fool and the fool is given card number zero right, so the fool is the trickster, the fool is this ultimate trickster and yet the fool is kind of the core, the essence of the whole Tarot deck itself you know. So it's the relationship of the fool to the magician is absolute. These are two different faces of the same thing so the

fool is the trickster and the magician is the guided evolution guy and the fool is the trickster guy but they're all part of the same deck and I think that's maybe what we have to look at. I'm always leery of coming down on one side against another right in this because I think we're operating in this binary space and I think that's probably wrong -I think it's standing in our way


Right I agree. I think we need a comprehensive and nuanced approach which again it kind of bypasses our normal dualistic paradigms which are so prevalent but again we I think we have to rise to the occasion use this as an opportunity to take it up a notch if I can say that. There's so much I

want to talk about - the phenomenon whether it's phenomenon as in a singular intelligence or possibly several different phenomena.

The UFO phenomenon itself could just disclose itself at any point, it obviously has that potential but it doesn't.

So do you think that part of the UFO cover-up has been enforced or influenced in any way by the phenomenon?


Well there's an implication in what you're saying, that there is a a plan or a method or a strategy on behalf of the phenomenon and that may not be so. It may just be living its life.

It wasn't until the last hundred years that we were in their space. We had never been in space, we had never been in the air, we never had an airplane until the Wright Brothers. Basically we had balloons and they came and went down, they were not that useful. But we did invent planes it was in the beginning of the 20th century.

For thousands of years we lived on the ground so whenever we saw the phenomenon it's when they just appeared over where we were and it was there .....But then suddenly within the turn of the century the late 1800s to the early 1900s now we're in the air, we've invaded their territory. I call it the

government of the sky we went and invaded their territory we have planes up there. In the last 100 years we've had jet aircraft, propeller aircraft we've had rockets that we've sent to the Moon and in satellites we've sent to the far reaches of our solar system. We've suddenly gone where they are and I

think that may be one of the reasons why this has picked up speed or seemed to have picked up speed so much recently is that we're now all over the place. I mean we go off the coast of California with our Jets and suddenly the Tic Tacs are there. We would never have seen them before right, you have these sailboats and were out there and we have our sextants trying to figure out where the hell we are. Now we've got this equipment we're out there like crazy we're sending up Jets from the deck of our aircraft carriers out into their area. We are pressing on them, we are in a sense invading their space

literally and figuratively. So maybe what's happening is they're just reacting to us and maybe it's like a normal almost an organic reaction to our presence initially and I think that after we had made ourselves known to them they started paying more attention, they started visiting our missile bases and our nuclear facilities and started screwing with us just to see what would happen. Maybe this is testing behavior 'let's turn off an entire missile system and see how they react, oops they're getting nervous turn it back on again or let's fake the Russians into thinking that the United States is attacking them, that should be fun right?

I talked about this in War, it got to the point where there was one military base Russian Soviet base where they figured out how to make them show up. They knew that if they did certain movements, if they started moving equipment around in a certain way, suddenly these things would show up like that You got their attention almost like shaking a a thread in front of a cat they would suddenly go crazy. So if they started moving their equipment around on this particular base and acted like they were getting ready to do something the phenomenon would show up. There would be lights in the sky ,suddenly there would be interference coming from from that source. They began to do physical gestures at them. you know they try to make them move in a certain way. They would wave their arms back and forth, this is weird stuff but the Soviets were doing this. There's no reason that we didn't do the same

thing but we know the Soviets did because they wrote abou it - the Generals after the fall of the Soviet Union were quite open discussing this.


There's been talks about non-human intelligence literally walking among us. Bob Bigelow has

discussed it a number of times - human looking non-human entities. What do you what do you think of that?


Well I can go back to my own infamous Men In Black experience I'm sure you've heard me talk about it

Many years ago it was at the time of the first Gulf War I remember it from that point of view, I was living in a small town in New England

in Rhode Island in the middle of nowhere. Basically I was living in a house, there was a driveway, it goes down to a two-lane road and I'm coming back from shopping. I'm unloading the car, so this was about 1990 I guess and I know I look up and I notice an old model black Cadillac parked in front of my house with somebody with a wide-angle lens taking my picture and I'm freaking out! Like what the hell is this all about right? I put down the groceries and I run over to the car I want to see what's going on. Like this is a small town in Illinois, this stuff doesn't happen. The car takes off so I said I'm going to follow the car. I run back to my car, I'm going to get in the car and drive off and follow this guy when another car pulls into my driveway blocking me and it's another old car. It's the sedan, a station wagon rather, with the wood paneling you know these really old cars. And inside are two little women.

They look like Manson family members right, they're kind of like squeaky (foreign)?? looking. And they get out of the car to ask me directions effectively stopping me from following the Cadillac and they ask me, they say 'do you know where De Vilbus lives? This is imprinted on my mind right, I'm looking at a what the hell, no I never heard of this you know no way. They're out of the car, they're wearing these cloth coats you know these weird like old-fashioned garments, an old-fashioned car and they're sort of you know cream complexion, sort of reddish hair types. And they're looking at me very sweetly, 'do you know where De Vilbus is?' and I say 'no'. They get back in the car and drive away. By that time it's too late for me to follow the Cadillac Stupidly I didn't realize this car was part of that operation, whatever it was, right because they effectively came and blocked me, made sure I couldn't follow them which means that they were right there, right behind the other car which I did not see.

There you go so I'm I'm kind of like freaked out.

I don't know where this came from so I do a search, I'm looking for De Vilbus. There is no De Vilbus in the entire State of Rhode Island. Didn't exist, there was no such name right. But there was a development in Ohio, they had a factory that made equipment and I realized that I had known that factory's name because the year previously or so, I had contacted them with an inquiry about something. So De Vilbis was in my brain but it only exists out there a thousand miles away from from Rhode Island in this weird little obscure factory. And the name popped into my brain, okay, fine weird but can't explain it

Almost ten years later I'm in the airport in Singapore, I'm trudging through the airport - I was based in Kuala Lumpur at the time in Malaysia, frequently I would fly into Singapore from other countries and stuff and catch a flight to Kuala Lumpur - and I'm dragging my suitcase through Singapore when somebody hits me on the shoulder, on my left shoulder, taps me on the shoulder. I stop and I turn around. It's one of the girls from the car and smiles

and walks away! I turn around and I go chasing after her, she's gone. I don't know where she went but she hit me. I hadn't even thought about these people in that amount of time right they just ceased to be an issue but that made it come flooding all the way back, just tipping on the shoulder 'hi, we're here' and took off. It's important to realize that I'd never had a UFO sighting at this point, never saw UFO but I saw Men In Black like why is that? The guys in the black caddy were like you know cookie stamp men and black guys right, and then they're followed by these two women in the weird station wagon with the wood paneling. Is this just the weirdest thing -so what was your question?


My question was non-human intelligence walking among us whether they they could pass for human or whether they're able to take that form and interact with us in that way.


As far as I'm concerned that's what that was. Now I have no scientific basis for that, it's just that the accumulation of things that had happened made me think that that that I was looking at something that was trying to look normal but was like 30 40 years out of date which is

the Men in Black experience right, that's always something that's too old and it's just it's not quite right. It's not quite the same and this seemed my impression. I've always said these were like Manson family women - that was my reaction to that, it's as if they cloaked themselves in something that I would see and they stopped me from doing what I was going to do because I was going to chase that car wherever it was and figure out who they were and I was unable to do that even though I had in front of me the actual proof these two girls in the car which was part of the same thing had to

be and I could have followed them instead but but instead I was too discombobulated by the experience and I realized the car was gone and I gave up before realizing, wait a minute it was a two-car team right.

Peter then told the story of meeting UFO author Timothy Good who told him that if you wanted to see if it's true that they are walking among us

Timothy says 'prove it for yourself go to any public place go to any crowded place.' He suggested an airport terminal with a lot of people

all milling around. Just sit somewhere peacefully and quietly just wait, take a few deep breaths and say' Okay show yourself you know I want to see that you're here I'm here. So let's give it a little give it a little time then open your eyes, you're going to see somebody staring straight at you and smiling and then walking away and disappearing. He says try it - he says it works every time so it's just that we're not making the effort identify them.

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