Speaking through Nebraska medium Regina Ochoa, on this podcast, Sagan revealed:
"I signed an agreement that I wouldn't speak about UFOs. I signed an agreement when I agreed to be a part of the Blue Book team. I signed an agreement because twofold, early on it was an encouragement for me to deny certain things in order for me to get the grants and the financial background to do all the research I wanted to do including SETI, all of the research that I needed to do to know that there's extra extraterrestrials way, far out there. But I had to deny, and it made no sense to deny that any UFOs would want to visit us. Of course they're here, of course they are but in order for me to continue to get the funding I needed for my study and for all the other research and all the other scientists that I was helping to support grant-wise, I needed to agree to disagree with the public, to deny that there's UFOs. However I wanted everyone to keep looking up, to keep looking out there because I was only one voice and I knew that there was a voice of many who were all seeing it and no matter how much I denied it and the government denied it, sooner or later that voice of many was going to come forward. I knew this would be public eventually and it has been"
Regina added - he's saying right now that the other thing is, that if he didn't stay quiet his family was going to pay for it and "I couldn't have anything happen to my children or my wives, all three of them. And I made sure that they all knew that I was agnostic that I didn't believe in any of this stuff and I continually, continually stated that to them, even though inside I knew there was more. And it's not a confession at this point it's just who I was, it's just I had to do it - I had to protect my family.
They talk about little black men or the I mean the black men and black suits and black suburbans, they're
there, they'll make sure you tow the line. There was too many people who didn't follow contract and did suffer the consequences. I wasn't going to have my that happen to my family" he says, so UFOs? Yes, they're there.
https://youtu.be/ZZjshFZbyuA?t=412
FULL TRANSCRIPTION OF THE SAGAN SECTION INCLUDING HIS VIEWS ON GOD
Jeanne Love (medium)
Carl Sagan's right behind you right now Regina, he's got all of his whiteboards and his star charts and all of his stuff like he's in a classroom. It's delightful, I'm just really enjoying his energy as I'm sitting here even though we're thousands of miles apart
Regina Ochoa
He is very, very very calm he's been sitting here you know with his leg over the knee, one knee over the other you know and just kind of hooking his leg and foot and you know just fine, he's fine. And he's gonna basically just be talking through me. I don't think we're channeling, I don't think so. But he's just really close to me and just going to be instructing because he really wants me to be present for this, fully present so I'm going to do my best for him as well because he speaks a different language than I do. It may be English but it's not my English so it's amazing but really he's not here to speak about science so much are you? And I've had to write notes because while Carrie was talking (a previous session with Carrie ) he goes "oh I want to mention this and I want to mention that" as Carrie was triggering things in him to remind me.
So his main thing is UFOs and God. So he was agnostic and he admits it, you know, not atheist, agnostic and UFOs. Now UFOs he's confessing here okay. This is about a confession so he has two things of being right and wrong. He didn't like to be wrong because
science had to back all of its everything, he said science had to be a part of it. And if science didn't fit into it, it was a great way to explore, not theoretically but to explore the answers and to find out the reasons why if it didn't fit and where it should fit and how to get there. And he's telling me right now that Carrie was mentioning how she didn't care so much about the remakes the constant bringing in of all of the different Star Wars things, the different series and he's saying well that's part of who he was about, what he wanted to encourage, because he said sci-fi from all of the movies and things like that, encouraged the next generation to look further, to keep going deeper, to think, think about science in a different way and he said that was important. So he really thinks that Carrie, even though there may be things about it that she didn't care for, he said that's really important for the rest of our generations to continue to push forward and be inspired by sci-fi, to find out the real science of it. He said science was a great exploration and a great bridge to the Beyond. That's where he is now, he recognizes how wrong things were because there's so much and he said he knew there was more and that was why he was agnostic.
But to pinpoint and to say there's a God, absolutely not. And that's where he says I'm right because he said that it's a.. it's a... let
me get the right word, he's trying to give for me, he's got some other kind of long, convoluted word that doesn't make sense to me. He's saying God, the word God is merely a tool that humans have to use in order to allow them to believe that there's something greater than them. He said but the reality is we all know deep inside and he's saying even I knew that there's more, there's absolutely more, but we deny it because we have science to fall back on, even though science doesn't give us the answers and he said "I was part of that um although I kept wanting to go further, I kept feeling like it needed, there's an adventure out there that I need to go further I wanted to be.. I would have loved to been with Kalpana Chawla (from the ill-fated Columbia crew) I mean we, she and I, we've had lots of conversations and he says "she's one of my closest friends here", he says "Neil Armstrong, I love to hang with Neil Armstrong. I hang with all the astronauts. I know them all, John Glenn everybody I know them, they were all my friends at one point in time and the real physical world, so to know them now and we're all talking and we're talking freely without being limited by the government, he said the government, absolutely.....
He said "I signed an agreement that I wouldn't speak about UFOs. I signed an agreement when I agreed to be a part of the Blue Book team. I signed an agreement because twofold, early on it was an encouragement for me to deny certain things in order for me to get the grants and the financial background to do all the research I wanted to do including SETI, all of the research that I needed to do to know that there's extra extraterrestrials way, far out there. But I had to deny, and it made no sense to deny that any UFOs would want to visit us. Of course they're here, of course they are but in order for me to continue to get the funding I needed for my study and for all the other research and all the other scientists that I was helping to support grant-wise, I needed to agree to disagree with the public, to deny that there's UFOs. However I wanted everyone to keep looking up, to keep looking out there because I was only one voice and I knew that there was a voice of many who were all seeing it and no matter how much I denied it and the government denied it, sooner or later that voice of many was going to come forward. I knew this would be public eventually and it has been"
Regina added - he's saying right now that the other thing is, that if he didn't stay quiet his family was going to pay for it and "I couldn't have anything happen to my children or my wives, all three of them. And I made sure that they all knew that I was agnostic that I didn't believe in any of this stuff and I continually, continually stated that to them, even though inside I knew there was more. And it's not a confession at this point it's just who I was, it's just I had to do it - I had to protect my family.
They talk about little black men or the I mean the black men and black suits and black suburbans, they're there, they'll make sure you tow the line. There was too many people who didn't follow contract and did suffer the consequences. I wasn't going to have my that happen to my family" he says, "so UFOs? Yes, they're there. God? No God, no God, none, none.
An immense Journey out here, an immense exploration out here, an unending, an unending opportunity to explore out here where we are and and science has limited us and also opened doors for us. When we're walking, when we're terrestrial but if we could constantly remind ourselves that this is only one avenue to think, then we could see so much more and hear so much more and feel so much more" and he said there there were exciting things. "So much of my thoughts and discoveries and realities came from when I was dreaming. I'd wake up and I'd start writing them down. I got answers that made no sense and I didn't talk about it either because I was supposed to not... I was supposed to make them... they... I had to follow the protocol I had to make s..t and I didn't want anybody thinking... I didn't want anybody pulling the plug, the financial plug. There was so much to give and so much to share. Mars was right out there. I wanted everybody to continually seek that further exploration, go to Mars, go further go further but also secretly I wanted them to explore and recognize that we have no bounds we have no bounds. So questions?"
Sally Taylor:
Yeah I have, well a little bit of a question, because when I think about the things that I have seen that you have written, whether it's quotes or longer passages or some of the programs that you participated in, like Cosmos and those things you were really good about writing a line between the science and the sense of awe that you seemed to have around all of it. Was there method in that madness at the time or is it something that you became more aware of afterwards?
Sagan (through Regina)
Yes and yes yes and yes. At all times I could write to a point, I could speak to a point. I wanted to speak further but I was always pushing it just a little bit further, so that by the time I was able to produce Cosmos, I was pushing my limits as hard as I could and at the time that that was actually being produced, it was pushing the limits of our ability to process this kind of information. I know today if I were alive.... live, here we are live! .... I know that today if I were in front of a camera I could really push the limits so much further because the world has come so much further in what they believe and they no longer accept all the limitations that we created back then. But we created it with the government that was all science, science and government had to create this, they created it to protect their own environment. It's just the way it works, it's an industry, it's a business and unless you protect the
So there was also you know the Blue Dot Project you know, that's the other one you know that is who I was racing into becoming and becoming more free to speak about human nature and our desire and our actual need to explore and to constantly go further and I had to speak of it that going physically further. Part of me wanted to say, you've got to go further here, you have to go further here, but I didn't know until I died that you had to go further than the heart. I really denied so many people including myself and my family by signing the agreement that I couldn't talk about these things. So I denied by shutting all of that down
because I couldn't, I couldn't go there, so I couldn't speak about it. I didn't want to put anybody in danger including all the grants and the fundings and everything else that came forward. So you know, there's a fine line, there's a fine line.
Am I sorry? I think I'm sorry for my kids
Sally Taylor - addressing Sagan
Well if I can give you a compliment that might ease some of that. It's that you created an incredible interest for so many, especially young people in the cosmos in the universe, in the unseen territories that man has yet to explore and that's very largely in part to your efforts to speak to those things on a public platform. And I was a young person watching a lot of those things and it made me so curious and so so interested in it, and that beginning interest leads to an open mind for these other things and that's the way the world has gone.
Sagan
That's the way the world has gone, it's led to the open mind. You're absolutely correct and that's what I see from my vantage point
now and if I could leave one message behind, one message and that is for my wife Ann.... She's not expecting to see me when
she dies. I want her to know I'm here and I will be there for her and she's not coming over soon, not yet. But I'm going to be there for her.
I had the entire Space Team hanging out with me on the other side, they just... they were all there. You want to hear something? I've got to tell a secret. Stephen Hawkings is with me the two of us, we hang together. Boy do we have laughs! And you know what? We both can drink now (laughter). I gave him a cigarette, he gave me something too and you know what? He's going "Oh my God, was I wrong! "And I said "Yeah oh my God was I wrong!" and you should see all the rest of scientists, we're all going "Oh my God, were we wrong!" But wait, there is no God!
Gary Langley...
That's a question I have for you Carl because I know we're going to get emails about that, if you say there is no God. My understanding is there's no God the way most people conceive of it, as a being, a person, an individual but the ground of being the
source of everything is an aware energetic.... beyond what we can describe. So that's what I would ascribe the name God to... the ground of all being. Would you agree that is the case? I mean obviously it's not somebody on the throne sitting there and you're going to play harps and.....
Sagan
Well I don't want to take away from what those expecting to feel or see or experience absolutely. I'm just telling you that I wasn't expecting a God. I'm agnostic as you know I told you. It's okay but G O D is a word, three letters. Allah is another word and all the other words that are described and there's sounds, they're just sounds that make up a connotation of what God is to an
individual and I am not denying any of that. No I do not deny any of that and I think it's real important for everybody and your audience to recognize that when we say there is no God, or others like me, it is to say that it's not a source that exists outside of matter because God is all matter, all things, all sight all sound, all and matter's energy.
Gary Langley
Carl I think we're saying the same thing. I wanted to clarify that for viewers because I could just already feel people typing "What do you mean there's no God?" so I wanted to clarify that.
Sagan
Well there's going to be plenty of people who are meeting God when they die
Garry Langley
Oh sure but...
Sally
Exactly!
Sagan
"There's going to be Christ, as for others there's going to be all of that I wanted to guarantee your public that there is, because that's what our heart is projecting and expecting
Gary L
"Right and when we get to to your realm of existence, our inner world becomes our outer world reflected back to us is my
understanding. I'm not there yet but I'm a researcher. I've been into this my whole life. But let me rephrase it, in a way, there is no God as we conceive of God from our limited human understanding. Would that be a clearer clarification?
Sagan
Yes, yes because there is no limit
Gary
Right, right, exactly right.
Sally
And it does seem that people experience often the heaven they expect right?
Gary
Right, for a time..
Sagan
"I wasn't expecting anything when I died. I really just thought, "oh well, here we go and if there's something there for me, oh well okay, but I really wasn't expecting anything. And when I got here, I mean I didn't have to sit in where so many have had to sit in, so really close to the Earth plane. I didn't. I wasn't there, in fact I was floating, I was I was finally living my dream, I was
floating in space I was. That was my God, that was my God. That was indescribable, the blackness of space with this deep, rich, exquisite clarity of deep, deep, dark blue black. This wasn't black black it was blue black and the immensity of life force not G-Force not a gravity of any sort, of life force. And everything, knowledge flowing forward to me, into me, like the movie 2001 Space Odyssey, when you saw all those lights flying fast past you, that's how fast but it wasn't flying past me. it was coming into me, it was coming into me" he says "and that was God"
Sally
That's profound!
Sagan
It, it is god
Gary
Well I always say, whatever you can conceive of it to be is not it, but have at it, have at it
Sagan
Have at it. I did not expect it and I was there in this state I don't know how long, I have no idea how long and is there
time? I just don't know. I don't know what, I've never had the experience of stasis but yet everything happening simultaneously and knowing and experiencing and seeing and feeling and yet there's a nothingness about it too and there wasn't this overwhelming Joy or overwhelming love or any of that. It was just... it was... it was for me a heaven and when I feel like I woke up
that's when everybody goes, 'hey you're here, you're welcome you know. Did I go through a black hole? That was the first thing I was thinking, I was going through literally a black hole. Everybody was on the other side, hey this is pretty nice yet everybody was on the other side and I recognized everybody. But nobody was with body and how could that be? So all of these questions were there - I knew every one of these individuals that were there, yet nobody had skin, nobody with protecting clothing, nobody. And I thought, this is the weirdest kind of heaven anybody could possibly.... I was just like, I just couldn't believe any of it, so how does one write about this? You know I'm a scientist, I can't explain any of it
Gary
It just is
Sagan
It just is and that was and is and always will be my experience with God
Gary
Beautiful, I'm glad we clarified that
Sagan
Yes, yes I'm sorry to mislead anybody into doubting their own system of belief I do not want to bring that. I
want to encourage everyone to seek a deeper understanding of what they believe in because for each one of us, I have found from each one of us just talking to all the other guys and gals that we've all experienced something different, every one of us. Not one of us has experienced the same thing.
Gary
That's true in near-death experiences, where people die and come back, they're different. There's a core to it that runs through it that is the same but the images and the experiences can be very varied. So yes I think that clarifies that point a lot so thank you
Sagan
So I'm not quite sure what else I can share with you but I think that was.... I just wanted to really tell you there's more. Keep looking keep looking up, as they say on the PBS
Sally
Thank you for all you did in life and all you've done in the continuing life
Sagan
More to come
Sally ...for coming through to visit with us, thank you, thank you
Sagan
Thank you and I appreciate everything. Thank you, thank you